What I didn't want to wake up to

[sciencegeek]

So...last night in a feminist thread in a forum (which I was debating responding to in the first place because my feminist experience is intertwined with PoC experience, is intertwined with my LGBT experience, and wasn't entirely sure how to enter the conversation because I wasn't sure how my responses might be taken, since I can't talk about my feminist experience without the other two. Anyway the thread itself fairly superficial thus far), I had made the comment that I am not entirely comfortable right now calling men feminists (pro-feminist, supporters of feminism, yes) because they benefit from the system (I'm not saying that you have to agree with me, it's just my personal...belief, right now) and I got the response:

I guess I disagree that they are benefiting from the system, so it's easier for me to include them. I feel the same way about racism.

And...I'm not entirely sure how to respond to that. I mean, my first thought was "Well, clearly you're not a PoC", (well, and white people don't benefit from institutional racism? Really?) but figured that wasn't the way to respond. I think that...they see sexism and racism as things that are generally overt, rather than covert. I don't want to veer the thread into a different direction, and turn it into a wankfest, but on the other hand I can't really leave that comment alone.

Comments

[melisus.livejournal.com]

It's a difficult comment to reply to. I mean, how can one argue that men and white people don't benefit from sexist and racist systems? Of course, maybe this person is white because a lot of the times it IS difficult to see your own priviledge because it's so ingrained in society. You inherit it.

[sciencegeek.livejournal.com]

A few of people addressed it, so I guess we'll see if there's a follow-up comment from the poster.

[superri.livejournal.com]

When I first read that comment I felt like it was worded weirdly in general but that's just a sentence structure critique.

Keep us up to date with how the thread is going, I can see this going either turning into a very interesting discussion where everyone expresses their opinions respectfully or turning into something less happy. I hope the former is true.

[bucko.livejournal.com]

Hmm. I can see how you'd feel that men aren't quite feminists. I definitely believe that women, PoC, LGBT should have the same rights and privileges as white men. However, I have felt the feelings of "Yes, I think you should be equal to me but I don't want your gaining privileges to lessen mine," before (when I got rewarded by parents and my sister didn't) so I know its mostly selfish thoughts that keep equality from happening. I wonder how much of it is "Yes, you can have equal rights so long as I can still be in charge." Please let us know how the discussion goes.

[sciencegeek.livejournal.com]

I don't mean it as a "You cannot participate in the discussion" but rather of a philosophical nature, I guess. Men can participate in the discussion, but at the same time, can't co-opt the movement for their own purposes, because it isn't about them - they are there to listen, not to dictate how the movement should be undertaken (i.e. start a tone debate to silence the message). Men can be for woman's rights, but I don't think that they truly understand the depth of the oppression, and as such, can support feminism, and be pro-feminism, but not feminists.